• gian @lemmy.grys.it
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    4 days ago

    Maybe, but they only trying to silence them, not to solve the problems that cause their rising…

    • arrow74@lemmy.zip
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      3 days ago

      Racists and fascists should be silenced.

      I’m sorry they are upset that they saw a minority or that they overheard people speaking a foreign language while being brown. They can get over themselves

      You don’t need to pamper these beliefs. You can lead the voters to the actual cause of the issue without allowing them to empower fascists.

      Usually the real issue is economic. Lack of housing, low wages, failing Healthcare. Those can be addressed. You don’t have to allow the group trying to blame poor minority groups a seat at the table. You address the real issues

      • wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz
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        2 days ago

        “Oh no, a kebab stand on every street corner?!? What am I to do? Delicious, delicious kebab. I could try one from a different place every day and it would still take weeks to find the best one. This is unheard of! This is unfair! It’s the parliament’s fault! If they didn’t let in so many foreigners then I wouldn’t have this many choices before me. I could eat a good German currywurst, or a good German schnitzel, and not be inundated with so many options like ‘felafel or haloumi?’ or ‘döner or dürüm?’. This cannot stand!”

        • arrow74@lemmy.zip
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          2 days ago

          Well expect the local Döner shop can stay, he’s one of the good ones you see

          • wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz
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            2 days ago

            Yeah right, if AfD had their way that guy and all his nephews would get picked up at the grocery store or at the park or on their way to work or in their own homes, and saying “but I work at the local döner shop!” isn’t likely to help them much.

            Then all the right-wingers would start complaining when the döner shops all start shutting down, like “Those damn foreigners are abandoning me right when I need my lunch! I knew they were good for nuthin!”

            • arrow74@lemmy.zip
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              2 days ago

              It’s more of a joke on the people voting for the party and not the party line itself. The party means it

              Kinda the classic conservative thing of not seeing a problem until it effects them personally. Or at least a variation.

              The US is seeing the same thing, spouses voting for Trump then seeing their illegal/asylum seeking husband/wife deported and being shocked because “they were doing it right, or they were good not a problem”

              The cognitive dissonance is amazing

        • NostraDavid@programming.dev
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          2 days ago

          “I do love a good curry” - Piers Morgan

          Do you understand that we can simply take their recipes, and make it ourselves? You can have your kebab, while the rest of us can get a stable economy that can pay natives a decent loan, which they can use to actually buy a house, without getting fucked over by their corporate overlords because their loan is being undermined by the mass-immigration enabled by Liberal politicians - fuck them too.

      • Ibuthyr@feddit.org
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        3 days ago

        The AfD doesn’t really give a shit about foreigners. They mainly use them to gain votes. All they care about is money and power. Blaming foreigners for all of the problems is the easiest way to get votes. They hate poor white Germans almost as much as brown people.

        • wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz
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          2 days ago

          All they care about is money and power. Blaming foreigners for all of the problems is the easiest way to get votes.

          Hmm, I wonder who else tried this strategy in Germany’s history… 🤔

        • Herr_S_aus_H@lemmy.zip
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          3 days ago

          Oh, they care about foreigners and who they behold to be foreigners. They already had a conference, in quite close proximity to the Wannsee, to discuss how they would like to handle them. No extermination, yet. But the Nazis also didn’t start with death camps but plans for deportation or ethnic cleansing or remigration like it is called today.
          (Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Potsdam_far-right_meeting)

          • Ibuthyr@feddit.org
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            2 days ago

            You’re absolutely right. But it is more a means of controlling anti-sentiments to gain votes and it works really well because they instill a fear into people that actually isn’t real. I’m fucking scared of what will happen when they come into power. What I meant with my comment is that they hate anyone who isn’t rich. A rich foreigner has nothing to fear as long as they play along. It’s disgusting.

        • NostraDavid@programming.dev
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          2 days ago

          Blaming foreigners for all of the problems is the easiest way to get votes.

          The real issue is the politicians letting in insane amounts of migrants - I don’t care whether they come from the Maghreb, or the Appalachians. That is going to have VERY long-stretching effects, and politicians are crazily short-sighted. None of them has a 100-year plan for their own country. Absolute bonkers.

          • Ibuthyr@feddit.org
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            1 day ago

            It’s not exactly desirable. I’d prefer they remain in their home countries if there were peace. After all, it’s their home and it sucks to have to leave your home. But there’s war in those countries. The problems could be addressed, one being to allow immigrants to work for example.

      • NostraDavid@programming.dev
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        2 days ago

        Usually the real issue is economic. Lack of housing, low wages, failing Healthcare. Those can be addressed.

        Mass-immigration is the issue I have identified (at least for the Netherlands, but the same case seem to exist for other European countries.

        You don’t have to allow the group trying to blame poor minority groups a seat at the table.

        True, the politicians that don’t seem to understand that if you let in 100k immigrations (netto), and only build 70k houses a year, there’s going to be a housing shortage. “but people can live together!”, yes, but you forget there’s another 100k of people being born. So now you have 200k people fighting for 70k houses. It’s a problem with an easy solution, but no one seems to be able to reduce immigration. I guess we should revert the Vreemdelingenwet 2000 (and the 1965 variant, which is when shit started hitting the fan in regards of migration).

        Then there’s the cultural issues with such a massive influx of people coming and leaving (2024 200k left, 300k cam in), it’s straight up bizarre. Culture takes a while to be taught, and if you have such a large group in flux, I don’t see how that’s healthy for the country.

        Before anyone things I’m some fascist: Racism is not a legitimate term. Something Leftists should know. Also, fuck Christianity and the Monarchy. I’m Dutch-Frankian, not “white” (whatever the fuck that is supposed to mean). Yes, I have a white skin, but holy shit I’m not similar to Celtics, Romanics, or Slavics, you weirdo.

        • SapphireSphinx@feddit.org
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          3 days ago

          Neoliberal policies that take wealth way from everybody but the rich and gives it to them.

          I do not know about other EU countries but in my country these far right voters want MORE Capitalism/Neoliberalism, not less.

          • Wrufieotnak@feddit.org
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            3 days ago

            Oh yes, that is the whole stupidity about it. They suffer from it, like we all do, and then they want more of it. But they need to be dragged towards leftist policies or they will drag us all into the abyss.

            • WalleyeWarrior@midwest.social
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              3 days ago

              Because fascist parties have a scapegoat and clear things they want to change. Meanwhile the centrist parties that claim to be “left” are just sputtering around doing more of the same or window dressing approaches that do nothing, and are more interested in stopping the actual leftist movements that will help people and stop fascism.

          • boonhet@sopuli.xyz
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            3 days ago

            The paradox is that they’ll blame taxation for being broke even if the actual reason is capitalism.

            I reckon one major reason is that taxation is the visible part of your money being “stolen” whereas capitalists profiting off your labour is… well, potentially visible if it’s a private company and the owner flaunts his wealth, but generally if it’s a big publicly traded company, or a foreign multinational, etc, you need to be looking at the annual reports or something, because there’s no real local boss taking all the profit.

          • gusgalarnyk@lemmy.world
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            3 days ago

            Wealth inequality effects everyone and so it changes how everyone votes, but it also causes certain “answers” to that problem to become more popular or tolerable. So what we’re seeing around the globe is the rise of the far right who are providing the “answer” that rising inequality and lowering standard of living is entirely the fault of immigrants, the loss of the “traditional family”, and pretty much any “answer” except for useful ones. So no, this typically starts by driving people to the right as the right will most easily attempt to maintain the status quo at the expense of the scapegoat.

            The follow on effect is the rise of the “radical” left which provides the answer “tax the ultra wealthy, invest in public infrastructure, and strengthen worker rights” - all things that reduce wealth inequality or increase the standard of living.

            We’re currently figuring out which side will win out in the long run or if the fundamentals will continue to not change and delay this issue further. For example Merz and the CDU in Germany making life better for the rich and worse for everyone else, delaying the inevitable decision of either the AFD winning or some party like Die Linke (hopefully) or Die Grüns winning. So Germans get to watch their lives get worse until they’re ready to vote in parties with real positive change on their mind (or the opposite, real terrible changes like AFD).

            • Enkrod@feddit.org
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              2 days ago

              Sadly it’s gonna be AfD… I used to be more optimistic about who my fellow Germans vote for, but I have since moved to a rural region and HOLY COW, people go for the easy but wrong answers here seven times out of ten.

              • gusgalarnyk@lemmy.world
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                1 day ago

                Luckily most people don’t live in rural communities. I fear you’re right, but I hope Germany can find a Gary Stevenson of their own that can start pushing real solutions in a way all Germans can get behind.

          • Wrufieotnak@feddit.org
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            3 days ago

            Sure, a certain part, but if I look at my country or other democratic countries the right manages through their control of the media to convince a lot of people that it is the immigrants fault and we just need to be more xenophobic and then we will all be better off.

          • WhatAmLemmy@lemmy.world
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            3 days ago

            What planet are you even living on? Have you not seen the state of America? Remember Brexit? Why do you think fascists are surging in the polls everywhere? If a declining standard of living and quality of life created leftism out of thin air every developed economy would be on the verge of socialism in 2026.

            Neoliberal/Conservative policies make the working class poorer and the rich richer, who use their capital to seize the means of democracy, kill competition, create monopolies, consolidate ownership of the media, etc and engage in wholesale propaganda aiming to divide and conquer the working class. The greatest threat to the Epstein classes wealth and power is a truly democratic government working “for the people”, so they’re promoting the same fascist populism everywhere to implement totalitarian dictatorship and remove the threat of democracy.

            The uneducated moron who “doesn’t do politics” is the easiest mark for fascism to con, because they can’t see the incongruence; the patterns of lies, crimes, corruption, and psychopathy only learned from studying historic parallels.

    • tomi000@lemmy.world
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      3 days ago

      Unfortunately at the stage we are at we dont have enough time to only fight the root causes.

      • gian @lemmy.grys.it
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        3 days ago

        Maybe true, but these are the consequences of ignoring (or creating) the problems but as it seems they don’t even care to understand why AfD get so many support.
        Only silencing them now will end with AfD with more votes and even less time to attack the root causes.

        • tomi000@lemmy.world
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          3 days ago

          Of course the current German government doesnt care for the root causes. CDU has always sided with millionaires and promoted suppression of the working class. They are hoping to shut down AfD while staying in power. On an EU level, we cant really do more than this but its the least that needs to happen.

          • gian @lemmy.grys.it
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            2 days ago

            They are hoping to shut down AfD while staying in power.

            Then they are even more stupid…

            On an EU level, we cant really do more than this but its the least that needs to happen.

            Oh, yes, we can do way more.
            Think about to impose some sort of limitation to indiscriminate immigration, think about stopping to try to punish the members that do not accept illegal immigrants, think about starting to work to preserve the industries and workplace in Europe, think about how to make outsourcing production less cost-effective for those who do it.
            There are a lot of thing EU can do if they want.

            • Enkrod@feddit.org
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              2 days ago

              So you want to support the incorrect narrative of those xenophobic liars that it’s because of immigration instead of the real reason, out of control capitalism with the rich getting richer?

              • gian @lemmy.grys.it
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                1 day ago

                No, I was pointing out that there are things EU can decide to do that make points that are behind AfD rising moot. Which is the solution if we want to solve the problem and not just hide it.

                Up until politicians do not understand that AfD (like the far right wing parties in general) are the effect and not the cause, AfD and the like will continue to rise.

                AfD has a xenophobic narrative ? Yes, of course. But they was also offered an easy target.
                Let’s be real: if there would not be all these illegal immigrant in our cities (I am sure that the problems we have near the Milano Central Station are common in many cities) AfD would not have a target. If we had done something when all the jobs were moved to cheaper countries they would not have a target. The rich are getting richer because we are allowing them to do so.(*)

                True, there would always be some fascist around, stupid people would always exist, but they would be just a small group of fanatics that are irrelevant like the dozens of other parties (never hear about the Popolo della Famiglia italian party for example ?) that get 0.something % votes at the elections.

                Silencing them it’s like sweeping dust under the rug: sure, you can’t see it, but the dust is still there and sooner or later it will come to bite you.

                (*) BTW, thinking that all the problems are caused by the rich getting richer is the same thing that thinking that all the problems are caused by immigration: it is false. Both of these thing are aspects of the same problem, not the cause per se.

            • tomi000@lemmy.world
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              1 day ago

              Oh I wasnt talking about what the EU can do to promote fascism, I meant opposing it.

              • gian @lemmy.grys.it
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                1 day ago

                Let me understand: wanting to have some controls over unchecked immigration and to preserve jobs in EU is fascist ?
                What was your idea of opposing fascism then ? Simply sweep it under the rug and think that just because you can’t see it, it doesn’t exist?

    • MyButSmellsBat@feddit.org
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      2 days ago

      You mean the problem that almost all media is controlled by right-wing billionaires?

      yes, thats big problem. But it’s good to at least take away some power from the party

      • gian @lemmy.grys.it
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        2 days ago

        You mean the problem that almost all media is controlled by right-wing billionaires?

        Maybe in the US this is true, not here

        yes, thats big problem. But it’s good to at least take away some power from the party

        No, you are not taking away some power from them, you are simply giving them more “weapons”. It would not be that difficult to frame this as “look, they want to silence us because we talk about $PROBLEM they caused”

      • WalleyeWarrior@midwest.social
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        3 days ago

        You can snip the vocal cords of all the vicious dogs you want. Sure they stop barking, but they will still maul you

        • wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz
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          3 days ago

          Then send animal control after the ones who bite.

          But these aren’t dogs. These are humans with voting rights and the ability to run for office. Banning fascist political parties is a good thing, and it’s strange that you seem to think otherwise.

          • WalleyeWarrior@midwest.social
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            3 days ago

            It’s an endless game of whack a mole if you silence specific parties. The only way to stop them is to improve people’s material conditions so that fascism has no appeal.

            • wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz
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              3 days ago

              Yeah, that’s how they should’ve stopped hitler. Just improve people’s material conditions, it’s not like he’s actively sabotaging that in order to manipulate them into giving him more power. Oh wait, he did.

              If whackamole is what it takes to keep the fascists down, then whackamole is what it’ll be. History is never over. Life and society are never won. There will always be a danger of resurgence. Vigilance will always be necessary.

              Sorry to tell you this, but it’s true. The balance of the world hangs on a razor’s edge at the best of times. It doesn’t take much to destabilize a system when everything is going smoothly.

              So sure, improve people’s material conditions. There’s a lot we could do better in the world. But don’t stop whacking fascism every time it rears its ugly head…

              • WalleyeWarrior@midwest.social
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                2 days ago

                Dude, the German government literally handed power to Hitler in an election he didn’t win, because those in power would rather slaughter every minority they can think of rather than give an inch to the left.