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The other poster is right about “whataboutism.” Genocide is bad no matter who does it (as a reminder). Or, do you think that what the CCP is doing in Xinjiang isn’t genocide?
Like war is bad, but only Russia is sanctioned?
People could also acknowledge that the US organise regime changes and that the genocide is part of a hybrid war which shifts some responsibility onto the US.
What? I agree that war is bad no matter who does it, but I don’t understand the relevance?
I’m also not forgiving the US of its sins. I don’t plan on elevating any country or sovereignty or government above my own ethics.
We don’t expect people who argue in favor of the US to take responsibility for the genocide and to give back the land. The genocide argument can only be used by one side to shut down a debate.
Oh. Yeah. On the one hand I think it’s really cowardly for North Americans to refuse to be introspective about their country’s history. On the other hand I know how absolutely frightening it is to be that introspective and deliberately shake the scaffolding you’ve built your identity on. Doesn’t change the facts of, or excuse, or ameliorate what American colonists and their descendents did to Natives and Africans. Not to mention all the crimes for Cold War intervention.
Not even wikipedia thinks it’s genocide anymore… get with the program
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Uyghurs_in_China
Literally lists all the examples of genocide in the Wikipedia.
So dumb it hurts.
I’m talking about that very page being renamed from “uyghur genocide” to “persecution of uyghurs in china”
Protip: if you think that someones “so dumb it hurts” you’re likely misunderstanding something or missing info. Some humility goes a long way.
see the “frequently asked questions” on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3APersecution_of_Uyghurs_in_China
Protip: if you are going to deny a genocide try harder
Shouldn’t you be discussing this on wikipedia?Apparently their editors don’t think that there is enough credible evidence of a genocide as well, hence the name change.
Why!? We already know it is a genocide.
The name changed because it doesn’t meet the statutory definition of the law. This has zero to do with it being a genocide outside of one narrow definition. This is the same logic that Maga uses to deny Trump is a rapist
People also argue if what is happening in Palestine is a genocide. There are many people who don’t believe what happened to the Native Americans is an ongoing genocide or what the US has done by locking up and destroying minority families (also a genocide). Just because they aren’t actively slaughtering them doesn’t suddenly make it not a genocide.
https://www.genocidewatch.com/what-is-genocide
Shouldn’t you go somewhere else to deny this genocide, since that is your part? A genocide denier through and through.
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Thanks for deep diving into the reason why. Although there are many scholarly articles calling it a genocide
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/01419870.2021.2001556#abstract
https://www.humanrightsresearch.org/post/persecution-of-uyghurs-in-xinjiang-torture-crimes-against-humanity-and-genocide
https://www.ushmm.org/m/pdfs/November_2021_Uyghur_Report.pdf
https://www.mdpi.com/2075-471X/9/1/1
https://newlinesinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/Chinas-Breaches-of-the-GC3.pdf
https://digitalcommons.usf.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1834&context=gsp
I said it was settled fact. That is not up for debate with me, but you are of course welcome to continue to deny the genocide like you have been.
I am not just posting for you, I am very aware you don’t consider any sources I use valid. This is a common tactic of tankies. No surprise there.
You are of course wrong, but that is okay. You are primarily driven by ideology rather than logic. This allows you to discredit everything that disagrees with your view as western propaganda which really isn’t wrong as everything is technically propaganda. The devil is in sussing out what is true and what is not by understanding the intent and circumstances.
I don’t believe China is slaughtering Uyghur, although they have definitely killed more than just what normal police action would cause. What they are doing is a slow burn genocide similar to what the US has been doing for years. A polite genocide if you will.
I don’t really have a dog in this fight because I am not pro China or pro USA. I have been involved with Amnesty International and I have assisted in getting political prisoners released from both countries. I truly view both nations as utterly corrupt partners in making billionaires richer. Why any self respecting leftist would carry water for them is beyond me.
So you don’t think it’s genocide? How come? This is a complicated issue and I’m legitimately seeking information
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You referred to Wikipedia as an authority earlier, so here’s some Wikipedia commentary about recent developments in Xinjiang: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_internment_camps https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Uyghurs_in_China#Classification_of_abuses
And an article about terrorism/resistance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_China#Xinjiang
And there’s plenty of reasons for China to do this - they’ve long seen the land there as Chinese, regardless of the people living on it. Not to mention natural resources, extending borders, marshaling resources to fight capitalist imperialism, et cetera, et cetera…
Secondly, this is the reason I’m asking people what they think genocide is. The ICC would define genocide very narrowly, just the slaughter of people en masse based on ethnicity. Historians and academics actually have a much broader view of genocide, including cultural replacement actions like eliminating languages, displacement, and destruction of culturally important locations. Israel does all of this to Palestine, as well as the USA and Canada to native peoples.
So let’s leave the rubric of “genocide” and consider what the CCP is actually doing there. It seems obvious that they want to erase Uyghur culture and replace it with Han. There can be reasons for Uyghurs to want Chinese intervention, and reasons not. But as an individualist Westerner, I consider consent to be one of the most important virtues in society, and China is radically altering (if not erasing) Uyghur land and culture without any consent on the part of the Uyghurs. In my view, it’s just the same imperialism and colonialism that the West has been doing for centuries. Do you agree? What did I get wrong?
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Thanks for sharing all that. I think you and I have a lot in common, actually. I grew up as a Jehovah’s Witness, and never really felt close to that community. I’ve always felt like an outsider as well, but I think we diverge in that I identify with my outsider-ness and appreciate the freedom of individuality. But I also identify as an introvert, happier on my own or with close friends than with large groups or strangers. I wonder if there’s some overlap there? Do you consider yourself introverted or extroverted?
Look at this guy. Same logic would be used to say no Native American or Palestinian genocide either.
I am sorry, but I don’t buy it for a second.
I don’t follow? We have way more evidence of both genocides, both of the actions, mass killings, child abductions etc., as well as propaganda campaigns to stoke hatred and fear. Neither group is very free to practice their religions and culture, facing harassment and red tape etc. I don’t see the parallels at all.
I’m not looking to convince, I’m just giving my POV as asked. These were the types of questions I saw the tankies be able to answer and that’s what ultimately convinced me that the whole thing is just a US propaganda psy-op. Back in like 2019-2020 I was breathlessly reading “Der Spiegel” articles about systematic rape of uyghur women in prisons and bought into it wholesale. I got flipped, so to speak, in 2023 or so. So what I’m portraying here is what people that want to “flip” me back are up against.
No proof, a psyop, you believe tankies!? Oh my God.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strike_Hard_Campaign_Against_Violent_Terrorism
Westerners deciding to crack down on Muslims equals bad but Chinese equals good. If you think there is logical consistency with tankies you got another thing coming.
Are you surprised the world is not making a bigger deal out of Muslim suppression? Not me, par for the course.
There is almost no proof of the Native American Genocide so I guess it must have never happened. Looks like the natives are doing just fine with their casinos!
So dumb it hurts.
And then you deny the rapes!? What in the literal fuck is wrong with you.
Oh you are just playing devil’s advocate as a pretend tanky!?
https://www.genocidewatch.com/single-post/allegations-of-shackled-students-and-gang-rape-inside-china-s-detention-camps
Sure no proof except countless stories. The thing is this is human nature. Be it detention or “reeducation” rape always goes hand in hand. It doesn’t matter where in the world you are. This is the injustice of concentrating people.
Then complain about all genocide instead of picking and choosing, right there bud?
No, that’s a serious question, actually. There’s lots of different kinds of genocide, and the ICC doesn’t recognize all of them. If you’re far enough left, there may not even be such a thing as genocide apart from mass murder, because the very concept of genocide is rooted in an enlightenment framework. You may consider that the CCP is actually “elevating” the Uyghurs to the level of proletariat and removing the “backwards” culture that was holding them back. Do you agree with that? What do you think genocide is?
On a different tangent, do you think AES countries are above criticism?
I appreciate the well read, as you appear to be, but there’s such a thing as overthinking it.
OP’s post is bringing attention to one genocide. I sarcastically drew attention to additional genocidal empires.
It’s not even “whataboutism”. It’s “you are picking and choosing and should be called out for it”.
I disagree with that read. I think “Uyghur genocide” is just a token to prompt a response, I don’t think there’s any subtext to it. Your sarcasm made me think you’re campist and those are actually questions I’m curious about. (Your answers would be appreciated, but also just any campist).
For the record, I’m American and am also angry and ashamed of my own country’s imperialist atrocities.