Thanks for sharing all that. I think you and I have a lot in common, actually. I grew up as a Jehovah’s Witness, and never really felt close to that community. I’ve always felt like an outsider as well, but I think we diverge in that I identify with my outsider-ness and appreciate the freedom of individuality. But I also identify as an introvert, happier on my own or with close friends than with large groups or strangers. I wonder if there’s some overlap there? Do you consider yourself introverted or extroverted?

Oh. Yeah. On the one hand I think it’s really cowardly for North Americans to refuse to be introspective about their country’s history. On the other hand I know how absolutely frightening it is to be that introspective and deliberately shake the scaffolding you’ve built your identity on. Doesn’t change the facts of, or excuse, or ameliorate what American colonists and their descendents did to Natives and Africans. Not to mention all the crimes for Cold War intervention.

1. I wanted to know how you formed your opinion, and I also had never heard of Xiaohongshu before (I just now made the connection that it’s RedNote). So, cool.
2. I’m not confident of what’s happening in Xinjiang. I know I’m surrounded by US/Western propaganda, and I’m trying to cut through it without succumbing to anyone else’s propaganda.
3. I grew up in a liberal society, and sometimes ML Theory seems like a really strange way of looking at the world. So I’m not building any opinions based on what I guess someone’s motivations are (especially the CCP).
4. I’ve been given to believe that genocide is a liberal idea, because it’s couched in false consciousness ideas about race and ethnicity. So a hypothetical AES state could commit mass murder, but not necessarily genocide. What do you think?

What? I agree that war is bad no matter who does it, but I don’t understand the relevance?

I’m also not forgiving the US of its sins. I don’t plan on elevating any country or sovereignty or government above my own ethics.

You referred to Wikipedia as an authority earlier, so here’s some Wikipedia commentary about recent developments in Xinjiang: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_internment_camps https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Uyghurs_in_China#Classification_of_abuses

And an article about terrorism/resistance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_China#Xinjiang

And there’s plenty of reasons for China to do this - they’ve long seen the land there as Chinese, regardless of the people living on it. Not to mention natural resources, extending borders, marshaling resources to fight capitalist imperialism, et cetera, et cetera…

Secondly, this is the reason I’m asking people what they think genocide is. The ICC would define genocide very narrowly, just the slaughter of people en masse based on ethnicity. Historians and academics actually have a much broader view of genocide, including cultural replacement actions like eliminating languages, displacement, and destruction of culturally important locations. Israel does all of this to Palestine, as well as the USA and Canada to native peoples.

So let’s leave the rubric of “genocide” and consider what the CCP is actually doing there. It seems obvious that they want to erase Uyghur culture and replace it with Han. There can be reasons for Uyghurs to want Chinese intervention, and reasons not. But as an individualist Westerner, I consider consent to be one of the most important virtues in society, and China is radically altering (if not erasing) Uyghur land and culture without any consent on the part of the Uyghurs. In my view, it’s just the same imperialism and colonialism that the West has been doing for centuries. Do you agree? What did I get wrong?

So you don’t think it’s genocide? How come? This is a complicated issue and I’m legitimately seeking information

I disagree with that read. I think “Uyghur genocide” is just a token to prompt a response, I don’t think there’s any subtext to it. Your sarcasm made me think you’re campist and those are actually questions I’m curious about. (Your answers would be appreciated, but also just any campist).

For the record, I’m American and am also angry and ashamed of my own country’s imperialist atrocities.

No, that’s a serious question, actually. There’s lots of different kinds of genocide, and the ICC doesn’t recognize all of them. If you’re far enough left, there may not even be such a thing as genocide apart from mass murder, because the very concept of genocide is rooted in an enlightenment framework. You may consider that the CCP is actually “elevating” the Uyghurs to the level of proletariat and removing the “backwards” culture that was holding them back. Do you agree with that? What do you think genocide is?

On a different tangent, do you think AES countries are above criticism?

The other poster is right about “whataboutism.” Genocide is bad no matter who does it (as a reminder). Or, do you think that what the CCP is doing in Xinjiang isn’t genocide?

Riveting discourse

I agree that it’s not a price issue because I wouldn’t mind paying inflated prices if that money went to the workers. It would be worth it, in fact. But the corporate entities that get that money while the workers get laid off.

The discs served as a proxy for licensing, right? It’s easy to conflate owning the disc with owning the rights to play the game; but it’s also easy to have DRM render discs useless if a game has “phone home” to unlock itself.

People don’t necessarily want discs, they want to own a copy of the game. It’s not a physical medium that really separates the two, it’s licensing and DRM software.