You must log in or # to comment.
From the previous version:
Leftists oppose the fact that the capitalists control the world. Liberals support the fact that capitalists control the world, and some of them are very loud about how they wish that control was administered more politely.
Of course liberals and leftists fight, for the same reason that leftists fight with more impolite right-wingers. We share a fundamental disagreement, an unbridgeable chasm. It’s not contrived. It’s a deep theoretical, practical, and moral disagreement, namely on the role of capitalism (or lack thereof) in our shared future.
Any coalition involving both liberals and leftists must eventually pick a side to resolve this divergence in our interests. And frankly, the only way to resolve it is to either become leftist and abandon liberalism, or devolve into yet another liberal capitalist waste of time and air.
Leftists get a pass. Dont worry they will chip in on the next struggle against oppression.
…do you think leftists aren’t contributing to various struggles against oppression?
Not in any impactful way unless you count accelerationism as a humanitarian effort.
Mutual Aid groups? Community defense organizations? ICE watch? Stop Cop City? Back in the day, Dakota Oil Pipeline protests? The anti-Zionist movement? Black Lives Matter? Occupy Wall Street? Obviously not all of these are exclusively leftist, but in all of these, leftists have had huge presence.
Hey, Im terse, I know, but mad respect here.
Yeah all your civil rights and labor rights just came out of voting and liberal parades. Please ignore the literal battles that have been fought over the subject.
The fact it has to say “lefty liberal” kinda proves it’s not infighting
Not in any sense of the word coalition.
What, am I just supposed to go to back to not treating everyone I interact with as an adversary even though I’m in an overwhelmingly leftist space? But that’s how Maga winsss!!!¡
Maga won bro. Id still keep you though.
🫂
Guess we’ll see if this bait post lasts any longer than the previous one. Don’t bother feeding the troll… just report
Gotta keep the infighting alive! For capital!
It’s not infighting if we’re not within the same organization or coalition. It’s just fighting.
Then quit running DSA candidates under the DNC.
I wish they’d do that too, but also real “but you participate in society, curious” energy there given that America is under a two party system.
No, in context its a very real criticism of their stance. Stop trying to jam every thought terminating cliche into every conversation that criticizes your ideology.
I can’t believe I’ve lived long enough to see “thought-terminating cliche” become a thought-terminating cliche.
More seriously, yes it’s criticism; it’s just (for the reason I gave) not very good criticism. The way the American system works, you don’t need to agree with or like the people in a party to run under its name, and under a two-party system there’s no reason to self-impose that condition.
Again youre missing the context.
Op was saying there is no coalition. If that were true quit trying build one with the DNC. Otherwise, if the DSA can stand on its own, it would have.
Thats why he went straight to gatekeeping because he knows its true that leftys side with liberals in the usa.
Again youre missing the context.
I’m not it’s literally right there.
If that were true quit trying build one with the DNC.
Again, an important feature of the American system is that you don’t have to do that to run under a party’s name. Borrowing the label for name recognition is something you can do here and it doesn’t mean you’re in the same team as the rest of the party.
Yeah I’m an anarchist, I don’t care about platforming Democratic “”“socialists”“”. Actually, I think the DSA ultimately siphons good people away from fighting oppression into liberal power structures, i.e. they benefit liberalism more than they help advance anti-capitalist worker power. There are definitely good people in the DSA, but IMO they’re wasting their time and energy.
I mean you can discount the socialists as a part of the left if you want. Im just saying titles have lost their usefulness at that level of scrutiny.
I mean you can discount the socialists as a part of the left if you want.
I’m discounting the DSA specifically as a part of the left, with the caveat that this is a minority opinion. While as an anarchist I absolutely disagree with other socialists on a variety of issues, clearly anarchists and non-anarchist socialists are leftists.
At least anarchists and socialists have the same end goal in mind
Not to be divisive, but…not completely. I would argue that anarchism is more comprehensive in its desire to eliminate hierarchy and authority than socialism. Anarchists are socialists, but most anarchists want to go further than socialism, and we all want to do it in a way that respects means-ends unity, i.e. the means we use to achieve our ends should resemble those ends.
For this reason, even though anarchists and other socialists both want to abolish capitalism and put workers in control of the means of production…we have wildly different visions for what that looks like. We share a common language primarily, and many common values (e.g. egalitarianism, anti-racism, anti-fascism, feminism, anti-LGBTphobia, internationalism, anti-imperialism, anti-capitalism), but the theoretical and practical divide between anarchism and Marxism is fundamental.
That being said, non-anarchist socialists are absolutely leftists. No question. We do share enough commonality to share that label. But we do not have exactly the same goals.
Anarchists are socialists, but most anarchists want to go further than socialism
I’d argue that’s most socialists. Ideologically I’m an anarcho-communist, if I could snap my fingers and instantly give everyone class consciousness and a stable anarch-communist society, I would. But I can’t, so I think in terms of steps to get there. Shifting the perspectives of hundreds of millions of people takes time and effort.
Right now, the next obvious step to me is market socialism. Eventually the market should yield to spontaneous mutual aid, but that will take time. Consequentially, I presently advocate Democratic Socialism. Once we have that, I’ll take another step towards anarchy, rinse and repeat.
we all want to do it in a way that respects means-ends unity, i.e. the means we use to achieve our ends should resemble those ends.
I think this perspective underestimates the strength of the forces opposing us. Not just the actual individuals deliberately working against us, but also the alienated and propagandized working class.
Until you lock them both in a room together with no one else.
Really living up to your username