Shameful

  • geissi@feddit.org
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    6 days ago

    I think Germany has a special relationship with “whiteness”

    No that’s the US. Racism in Germany and Europe as a whole, has always been about cultural and ethnic differences more than skin color. The persecuted slavs or jews were just as pasty as any German, unlike the “honorary Aryans” in Japan.

    Germany is a culture bursting with contradictions, within a year of Mein Kempf being published another novel was published The Magic Mountain by Thomas Mann

    Two different authors with different backgrounds writing different books? What a uniquely contradictory culture Germany is.
    Disregard that one of them is lauded for its literary and cultural significance while the other is basically as important as the art of the deal.

    And of course the explanation for contemporary German culture and its problematic relation to Israel can be found in the literature of 1924.
    Nothing significant happened since then, right? Everyone was on vacation in the 30s and 40s. Occupation, the Cold War, the literal formation of the country of Israel? Surely none of the could have any relevance.

    I do agree that the Magic Mountain is a great book.
    But although some of its themes do go against aspects of fascism, calling it "the most supremely antifascist novel imaginable " seems a bit of a stretch.

    • supersquirrel@lemmy.caOP
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      6 days ago

      No that’s the US. Racism in Germany and Europe as a whole, has always been about cultural and ethnic differences more than skin color. The persecuted slavs or jews were just as pasty as any German, unlike the “honorary Aryans” in Japan.

      ahahahaha

      Read The Color Purple or Their Eyes Were Watching God, the idea that racism actually cares about skin tone in any consistent way anywhere is impossible, contradictory and absurd, it is always mixed up with ethnicity, context and imposed categories. Germany is just the same as any other racist society in that respect. Check your ignorance.

      You added nothing to this conversation other than a sense of condescencion.

      The Magic Mountain is one of the most supremely antifascist novels ever written and its perspective from the eve of WW1 mirrors our current position with eerie and foreboding syncronicity. The Magic Mountain is easily one of the most important novels of the 20th century, if not all time.

      In 1933, when Hitler came to power, Mann moved his own family to Switzerland, and then, after his German citizenship was revoked, to the USA, where he recorded monthly anti-fascist dispatches which were broadcast to Germany by the BBC.

      He is ‘one of the great German writers’, wrote Malcolm Bradbury, ‘the spokesman for a modern humanism’.

      https://henryeliot.substack.com/p/the-magic-mountain

      Come up with a better argument if you want to cut me down.

      • geissi@feddit.org
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        5 days ago

        Read The Color Purple or Their Eyes Were Watching God

        Do they contain sociological studies that support your claim that

        Germany has a special relationship with "whiteness”

        Otherwise I don’t see what you think this is adding to the conversation.

        As for The Magic Mountain:

        its perspective from the eve of WW1 mirrors our current position

        We currently don’t have European empires in a mutual standoff waiting for the powder-keg to be lit. By all accounts most people are more reminded of the inter-war period with the rising fascism.

        The Magic Mountain is easily one of the most important novels of the 20th century

        I never disagreed but being important does not automatically make it anti-fascist.

        In 1933, when Hitler came to power, Mann moved his own family to Switzerland

        And just like his cold war experiences that you quoted before, this happened after he published Zauberberg in 1924.
        At the time, Mussolini’s regime had barely begun and Hitler was a failed putschist in jail.

        Come up with a better argument if you want to cut me down.

        Dude, your only “arguments” are wikipedia quotes about Mann’s life after he published the book, completely unrelated literature recommendations and an unexplained association of fascism with the eve of WWI.

        • supersquirrel@lemmy.caOP
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          5 days ago

          I honestly find it hilarious you don’t think The Magic Mountain is one of the most antifascist novels ever written, and one of the most effective and wholistic takedowns of fascism ever created in any form ever… your understanding of history must be so mutilated into discrete bloody boxes one preceding after another with no connection between one and another…

          Six months later, Mann resumed work on the novel he had begun before the war: The Magic Mountain. His development and completion of the manuscript occurred in tandem with a dramatic political reorientation: deeply shaken by the assassination of Foreign Minister Walter Rathenau in 1922, Mann took a decisive stand in defense of the fragile, embattled Weimar Republic. In his essays and speeches of the second half of the 1920s, he continued to warn Germans of the threat posed by the National Socialist Party. Had he not left Germany when he did, it is very likely that he would have been arrested and interned in the Dachau concentration camp.

          https://yalereview.org/article/morten-jensen-thomas-mann

          • geissi@feddit.org
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            4 days ago

            your understanding of history must be so mutilated

            I beg you to open a history book and look up when the rise of fascism happened.
            In 1924 the NSDAP was a bunch of violent thugs pretending to be socialists. Their rise to power happened a decade later. The only fascist was Mussolini and he had not yet fully implemented all that we nowadays call fascism.

            You have not made one single argument that actually ties anything in the book to fascism.
            You keep quoting articles about Mann’s later life but the only reference you made to the book itself was mentioning the eve of WWI which at least time-wise sets the action before the rise of fascism.

            You have not identified one anti-fascist theme in the book nor quoted any literary analysis that does so.

            If you desperately want to make this argument, then you have to ask yourself:
            What is fascism? What are its defining characteristics? Where does the book address them?
            And which themes are specific to fascism? Contemplating mortality as such is not.

            • supersquirrel@lemmy.caOP
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              4 days ago

              You have not made one single argument that actually ties anything in the book to fascism.

              So you did not bother to read the article I linked before responding?

              Yes I have.

              • geissi@feddit.org
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                4 days ago

                Yes I read it.
                It has not a single reference to fascism in the 1920s.

                The Weimar Republic was embattled primarily by monarchists and socialists/ communists; the NSDAP had not yet risen to power and not established fascism in Germany.
                The Dachau concentration camp was opened in 1933, a decade after the book was published.

                Again, you have not talked about anything actually in the book that relates to fascism.

                • supersquirrel@lemmy.caOP
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                  4 days ago

                  So is Mein Kampf not fascist because it predates 1933 too?

                  Get out of here with this lazy shit, Naptha is clearly a fascist in all but name in The Magic Mountain.

                  • geissi@feddit.org
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                    4 days ago

                    Are you claiming The Magic Mountain is a reaction to Mein Kampf, a book that had not been published by then?

                    Naptha is clearly a fascist in all but name

                    Now, this is actually an argument engaging with the material.
                    It’s been ages since I read the book, can you remind me what Naphtha says and does and how the book critically engages with that.